The economy, health care, the environment — there are so many important issues to focus on. But are we paying enough attention to that fundamental question: Are we happy? Professor Cassie Holmes joins host Brett Hendrie to talk about how we can re-prioritize our schedules to make time for happiness.
The economy, health care, the environment — there are so many important issues to focus on. But are we paying enough attention to that fundamental question: Are we happy? Professor Cassie Holmes joins host Brett Hendrie to talk about how we can re-prioritize our schedules to make time for happiness.
Brett Hendrie: Did you know that the United Nations publishes a World Happiness Report? It's true. And Canada has consistently ranked as one of the happiest countries in the world. But something is happening. Over the past 10 years Canada has fallen from fifth place to 15th.
The economy, health care, the environment, there are so many important issues to focus on. But are we paying enough attention to that fundamental question: Are we happy? This might seem difficult in the context of recent years, navigating a pandemic, coping with inflation, global conflicts and climate crises. None of these have made life easier for anyone. But while it's true that many external factors contribute to our overall happiness, a big factor is also time. Do we have enough of it in our days to prioritize ourselves and our families? Or is it being sucked away by work, commutes and chores? How do we focus on joy and avoid distraction? Is it possible to have too much downtime? And is there a science to how we can schedule our priorities so that in the end, we're all happier? It turns out, yes, there is.
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BH: Welcome to Visiting Experts, a Rotman School podcast featuring backstage conversations on business and society with influential scholars, thinkers and leaders featured in our acclaimed Speaker Series. I'm your host, Brett Hendrie, and I'm joined today by Cassie Holmes, an author and professor at UCLA Anderson School of Management. Cassie studies the relationship between time and happiness. And she's here to talk about her new book, Happier Hour: How to Beat Distraction, Expand your Time, and Focus on What Matters Most. In it, she explores why we often feel time poor, how we can create moments of joy, and how to better design our schedules with a purpose. And we are delighted to have her here. Welcome, Cassie to Rotman.
Cassie Holmes: Hello, thanks so much for having me. This is a treat.
BH: Cassie, congratulations on the book. Let's start off by talking about why we feel that there's never enough hours in the day. We're all so busy. Work home family relationships, commuting, chores. Your research is specifically looking at the relationship between time and happiness. Can you share with us in a big picture sense, how are these connected — time and happiness?
CH: Well, the hours of our days sum up to the years of our lives. And so when we're thinking about our happiness- and when I'm saying happiness, what I mean is what we in the research refer to as subjective well-being. So it includes both feeling more positive than negative in our day to days. But also, there's a cognitive evaluative component, so being satisfied about our lives.
I just want to be clear that when I'm using the term happy, I'm not talking about a frivolous, fleeting feeling. That this our emotional well being how we feel in our lives and about our lives is really important. And,you talked in the intro about the pandemic, and some of the challenges that we're facing within our organizations within society. And the pandemic has taught us that life is fragile, and we have all started really grappling with this question of how do we invest those hours, so that we feel a greater sense of meaning. So that understanding just how precious our time is that we're not looking back, on our time feeling any sense of regret.
BH: I think so many folks just have that intrinsic feeling of, there's never enough hours in the day, and you have a term in your book — time poverty. And I think that really captures what a lot of people feel. But can you unpack that language for us? What does time poverty mean?
CH: It is the acute feeling of having too much to do, and not enough time to do it. I'm sure many listeners are like, "Yes, I know exactly what you're talking about." We conducted recently, a national poll within the U.S. finding that nearly half of Americans feel time poor.
And the problem is serious, not just because of its prevalence, but because the effects are really detrimental. When we feel this way when we feel like we don't have enough hours in the day to do all that we want to do, it makes us less healthy for one thing. So we're less likely to spend the time exercising, we delay going to the doctor. It makes us less nice. So when we're in a hurry, we are less likely to slow down and help others out. It makes us less confident in being able to achieve what we set out to do. And our research shows that it makes us less happy. And it's associated with higher level levels of stress. And it's something that I in my work of trying to figure out and help people combat in their days, so that they don't feel this sense of limitation.
BH: And how much of that sensation or feeling is because of circumstances in people's lives beyond their control. And how much of it is the mindset of how they approach what they need to get done?
CH: It's both. Folks with young children who are working tend to feel particularly time poor. But it is a subjective sense that even the fact that it's the definition is having too much to do. And our sense of what we have to do is absolutely a construct, right.
And it's influenced by technology. Our smartphones are so darn smart. And at every moment, it is reminding us of all the things we can be doing, and maybe should be doing. Not only reminding us, it is a source for checking items off our to do lists. We at any moment can be ordering our groceries, at any moment could be taking a course, at any moment can be scrolling through other social media feeds to see all the fun that they are currently having. It affords us the opportunity to do an endless number of things at every moment. And that messes with our sense of how much we can and should be doing.
Given that is a construct, that's good news, because it means that we have influence over this feeling for ourselves. And what it speaks to is the importance of being really intentional and deliberate in terms of forming our lists of what we should, and can do. We need to be more proactive in defining what are activities that are worth us investing on. And from that we have more control than we think in our sense of available time.
BH: So for the folks that you work with and support and the research that you do around combating this feeling of time poverty, what's the alternative state? Is it time affluence, or is it more neutral?
CH: So time affluence is a positive state because it at least is lessening this sense of limitation. However, what I would love for people to reach is feeling that their time is rich. And that doesn't mean that they are rich in the amount of time they have. But it is a sense of spending your time in ways such that your days feel rich. That the hours that you're investing are making your life richer.
BH: It's fascinating to hear some of the language that you use, like richer and investing. And it leads me into my next question, which is about the relationship between time and money. And maybe it's a truism that money doesn't buy happiness, but certainly money is a source of stress and conflict for many people. So what's your advice or what has your research found in terms of how we can better understand our relationship to money and time and where they overlap?
CH: And absolutely having scarce money is a great source of concern and worry. But having more and more money doesn't necessarily lead to greater and greater happiness. Even thinking about these various these two resources have different effects on our emotional well being. So when people are very focused on money, it undermines happiness. When they are focused on time, and what it leaves them to actually think about is the time in their life, it makes them happier because they become more intentional in their spending.
Now, while money can't buy more happiness — and I would argue that time is more critical as a resource for our emotional well being — there are ways of spending money that can increase happiness. And in both cases, it's about creating and buying better time.
So there's research by Ashley Willins and her colleagues that show that when you spend money to buy out of tasks that don't feel worthwhile, and then reallocate that saved time towards investing in activities that do feel more worthwhile, that is associated with greater happiness. So you know, time-saving services like Instacart, or meal plans where if cooking, and grocery shopping does feel like a chore for you as an individual- yes, they do require a little bit more money. But what that is doing is saving time that you would otherwise be spending at the grocery store, or over the stove and actually sitting down at the table with your family at mealtime. So it's a time-saving service.
There's also some of my own work with Cindy Chan, who's a professor here at the University of Toronto, where we looked at buying experiential gifts versus material gifts. And experiential gifts involve time because these are experiences that you consume, like going out to dinner, going to a concert, going out to a movie. And what we found is that recipients of experiential gifts feel closer and more connected to the gift giver, than recipients of material gifts. And this is really important, because if we're talking about inputs into happiness, relationships, sense of genuine and our personal connection is such a significant predictor.
BH: It's really those experiential gifts are things that people register emotionally and have memories of that they can take with them and reflect back on over time. And that presumably gives them some happiness to remember those events.
CH: Absolutely. So the reason that experiential purchases contribute to greater happiness and greater lasting happiness is exactly that, that we hold those memories. And when we revisit those memories, and we talk about those experiences, they continue to have the emotional impact that is unlike material goods that we get used to, and in many cases collect dust on our shelves, that the effect on of those things on our well being wanes, whereas experiences continue to have that emotional touch.
BH: So obviously we're at a business school, here in Rotman. We have lots of MBAs at the school and alumni who have come through here. Many of them are professionals who are very driven and achievement oriented. How does that focus to always be achieving and to spend your time on productivity relate to happiness?
CH: It's not counter programming. What I'm doing is just shifting the goal. And oftentimes, when people think about time management, the goal is efficiency. So how much can you get done, the more the better, and the quicker the better. But I would assert that actually, instead of efficiency being the goal of time management, it should really be about investing in what's worthwhile. So investing that time in activities that will actually progress you towards the higher level goals for you, yourself, your personal purpose, which hopefully, and in thinking through and doing some of the exercises in the book can help clarify how you align your professional, achievements and goals, in line with your more personal broader purpose and goals.
BH: So talking about time management, I'm going to ask you for some advice for myself. And it's an idea that you touch upon in the book, where you look at your schedule for the week, and you have all these meetings, you don't have time to focus on the core work that makes you more productive. But I look in my schedule a month out or two months out, and I have all these openings. And I happily and readily accept meeting invitations from colleagues and other contacts. How can people get better at managing their time so that they don't feel that they don't have the bandwidth that they need to focus on their work?
CH: What you describe is something that we are all prone to. There's interesting research by Gal Zauberman and John Lynch, and what they call the "Yes/damn" effect, which is basically, we think we will have more time available in a month from now than we do today. And as a consequence, we are very happy to say yes to commitments that will play out in a month from now. Whereas today, there's no way because we don't have the time. But the problem is, once you get a month down the road, you're in exactly the same spot that you are today because you said yes to all of those commitments.
Now, a way to offset that is become really intentional about what you say yes to, and really rigorous about what you say no to, and using a filter, whether it is your purpose filter, so understanding what are your goals? What are those things that matter? Also, using a happiness filter. What are those activities that truly do feel worthwhile, that bring you joy, that are investing in what matters to you such that you are only saying yes to those things that matter? And you're saying yes to those things that you would say yes to, to do today. And you're not sticking yourself with a whole bunch of obligations that don't feel worthwhile a month from now.
BH: Can we petition Microsoft to have a happiness filter on Outlook requests that we judge that before we accept or accept or denying?
CH: Yes, please.
BH: So speaking about work, let's talk about how people find satisfaction in their jobs and we spend so much time working, that it's it definitely contributes to our overall level of happiness. You talk in the book about how you're very fortunate that you've found your dream job. Some people have done that as well. Some people have lesser levels of satisfaction with their job. But regardless of where they are in that spectrum, what's your advice in terms of how people can feel happy and fulfilled regardless of what job they have.
CH: It's a really important point. Because if you look at the research on time tracking — which pulls out what are those activities that tend to produce the most positive emotion that are most satisfying? What are those activities that tend to produce the most like negative emotions ?— you see that on average, among our least happy activities are the hours spent working. The other ones are commuting and housework. That's even more terrible because when you add up, the hours we spend working, and the time that we spend getting to and from work, that's a lot of our waking lives. And so we want to figure out, what are ways that we make those hours less onerous, more positive, more happy, more rewarding and satisfying? Because, as you noted, research shows that job satisfaction is a significant predictor of life satisfaction.
There's a couple of things that one can do, and it's sort of within the framework of job crafting. So ideally, you can select a job that is in line with your purpose, but even not understanding why, why are you doing that work? What is it that really drives you? What's the impact of the work that you're doing? And this is often not the job description.
And I have in the book "The Five Why's" exercise that helps folks dig into really what intrinsically motivates them in the work that they do. And the reason that's so helpful is because what it does, is — to the extent that you have control over what projects you take on — it allows you to set that filter to activities in your workday. But also, it helps you reframe some of those pieces of your job that aren't fun. But once you recognize how it contributes to your goals to the purpose of your work, then all of a sudden, it does feel more worthwhile, and is less painful.
Also using a bundling strategy. So this is a strategy identified by Katie Milkman and her colleagues, where they identified it as a way to motivate you to do tasks that you don't necessarily enjoy doing. I suggest employing it to make time that you wouldn't enjoy otherwise more enjoyable. It's so simple. It's basically bundles something you don't want to do with an activity you do want to do so that that time feels more enjoyable. You can think about how can you within the workday are there activities that aren't necessarily fun, but you bundle with something that is worthwhile. Instead of trudging through writing an email to a colleague about next steps on a project, suggest that you guys get coffee. And then that is social connection. Yes, you're making progress or at least devising next steps to make progress on the project. But also, you're spending time with another person who presumably because you're working together, probably they are interesting and very likely lovely to spend time with.
BH: I love that bundling strategy. And you give great examples of how you can use it outside of work as well by listening to podcasts or audiobooks on your commute. Or the same while you're cooking dinner or doing chores around the house and find something that you're really looking forward to and match it with the activity that you're less excited about.
CH: Exactly — one of my readers has shared her husband, all of a sudden now is happily taking on ironing, as something he will happily do. And the reason is because he's bundling it with watching sports. So he looks forward to his ironing time, because that's the time he sort of sets up the ironing board in front of the TV and turns on sports.
BH: The things we can achieve. You mentioned some key words that really struck my attention, commuting chores. And I'm wondering in the context of the pandemic, where all of those things got discombobulated where we're working at home or kids are at home. For many people, our commutes disappeared. What did we learn about how we manage time in that situation of the pandemic and have we taken any lessons from it that we should keep in mind moving forward?
CH: And in the second to last chapter of the book, I pull a lot of the strategies together to help people what I call time craft, but it's basically designing an ideal week so that you are carving out protecting time for those things that really matter. So that you are piecing together in a informed way in an intentional way, the hours of your weeks so that you have that time for space. While commuting tends to be a very, the time tracking research identified it as an unhappy activity some people actually missed their commute time, when they started working from home, because it was time that was there, and it bookmark the beginning of the workday and the end. But recognizing that it's not probably sitting in traffic that like brought joy, it was instead creating time to get outside, or maybe intentionally stopping to, get a cup of coffee from the coffee shop on your way into work.
What I would suggest is that people design their weeks overall in ways that is maximizing the amount of time spent on worthwhile activities. And not only the activity itself, but how do you engage in that activity while doing it, and minimizing the amount of time spent wasted?
BH: I love the that you use the word intentionality. Because when I look at those schedule grids of how we should plan our time, it really takes a lot of deliberate action. It's not a schedule that you can fall into. And I say this a little tongue in cheek, but it's so exhaustive in terms of the scheduling — are people who are more organized, more likely to be happy?
CH: I don't think it's organizational. I do think it's that intentionality. I mean, really being intentional in how you spend your time, gets you a lot of the way there. And then it's not just being thoughtful, but also being informed. And that is where some of the activities in the book, like time tracking, allows people to identify, what are those ways of spending that for you, personally, are satisfying, what are those ways of spending that for you, personally, are not fun, and in some cases not necessary, so therefore wasted or wasteful. And it also allows you to identify just how much time you're spending that's a waste. But I guess it's about intentionality, both making time for those most worthwhile activities, as well as when you're spending the time being fully engaged and not distracted. Or else, you might as well not be spending that time at all.
BH: And when things become wasteful, does that relate to the idea of hedonic adaptation? And if it doesn't, can you help us unpack that term a little bit?
CH: Hedonic adaptation is the fact that we get used to things over time. So when you do the same thing again, and again, when you're with the same person, it stops having the same emotional impact on us. Now, it's good that we are adoptive in the face of negative circumstances, because it makes us resilient.
But it's bad when even life's joys stop having the same effect on our happiness such that in some cases, we don't even recognize that there is joy right there in the time that we're spending because we are thinking about what's happening next. Or we are rushing through it because we feel time poor. Or simply because it's oftentimes these sources of joy are such everyday activities that we assume they will continue to happen every day. But that is a wrong assumption. And so I share some strategies in the book about how do we offset hedonic adaptation, so that we do continue to notice and find joy and enjoyment in these really wonderful ways.
And one of them is even recognizing that, in fact, these everyday activities won't continue to happen every day, and counting your times left makes you realize in so many cases says that the times left are more limited than we think. And so what that leads us to do is pay attention while we're doing it. It also motivates us to actually make time for those activities that while seemingly not urgent, are really important. And it heightens our realization that they are more urgent than we might otherwise think.
BH: It's a really brilliant exercise. And just to unpack it a little bit more, it involves really just estimating forward how many more times you'll be able to have a holiday dinner with your family, or to walk your child to school or any of these wonderful activities that we enjoy, and really understand the limits that are in front of you. And so you can enjoy each one of those in the moment.
CH: One of my MBA students calculated that even though she has moved back to Southern California to be closer to her parents, and they have dinner every Sunday night, she realized that she only has 8 per cent of dinners with her parents left. And what that leads her to do is to prioritize that time. So when incoming requests for what to do on that Sunday night come in, or she feels like she has a lot of work to get done, and like oh, maybe I don't have time to go meet up with her parents for dinner. Yes, she does. And she makes the time because she realizes how little there is left. But it also makes her engage in that time and such a better and whole way.
BH: I think the powerful insight from that is really recognizing that these things that we enjoy, unfortunately, have an end, and time has an end. And you share in your book, powerful exercise that you do with your students, where you have them write their obituary, or what people might say about them after they've passed on, can you share why that exercise and power is powerful, and why reflecting on our life and full, after we've moved on, is so important to how we can be happy with the time that we have.
CH: This exercise is writing your eulogy. Upon your passing, what will be said about you about the life that you've lived. This is not an exercise about death. One of my students she's like, I'm sorry, Professor, it brings me a great anxiety to think about my death, I can't do this exercise. And it's like, that's fine. let's reframe it. Write about your life.
Because ultimately, this is an exercise about laying out the life that you aspire to live. And in doing so, it clarifies what matters to you. What are your values? What are those attributes of yourself that really matter? When you're thinking about the words that you would love people to use to describe you, upon your passing? Those are those attributes that you want to live out and you can live out today. It also highlights your purpose, like what are your higher order goals, all of this can inform thinking about our years, overall, informs how we spend our hours today.
BH: There's so much wisdom in that. And it's so important for us just to really have that that mindset and understand that that perspective. Cassie, we're so appreciative that you could be here at Rotman today. We're very excited to help you launch your book, Happier Hour. If you have one piece of advice for our audience in terms of how they can better manage their time today to be happier, what would that what would that advice be?
CH: It would be to recognize that it's not so much about how much time you spend on any activity. It is about identifying those really worthwhile activities, and making the most of that time that you're spending. There's so much joy and satisfaction in our lives right now. And to the extent that you can invest in it, and notice it and savor it, then you're making the very most of your time.
BH: That's wonderful. Thank you, Cassie. Again, so much for being here.
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